Siege: Clan Wars - Otaku Kamoko, Seven Thunder

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Shinjo Dae-Hyun
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:48 am

Opinions on Kamoko, Seven Thunder?

http://www.l5r.com/2015/07/07/focus-sie ... ion-decks/

Honestly even at 16 GC, she's incredibly strong and pushes most military builds over the top.
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Lammia
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:27 am

I like the inclusion of Hachiman as a (Token) card and the special trampling of Yogo Junzo. I think it's a nice way to revisit the story.

In terms of playability; I think outside of the Siege format, the gold cost (Single most expensive personality in 20F) and HR should usually be too much for most Decks. (I'm - perhaps oddly - excited to see Duelist printed on a Unicorn personality again though.)
Last edited by Lammia on Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shinjo Dae-Hyun
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:41 am

The fact that Kamoko creates Hachiman for protection, has a offensive/utility harpoon, and duelist in place of double chi makes her incredibly strong. Kamoko also makes the 2nd Unicorn ever printed with duelist aside from Akasha, so now that makes a total of 2 Duelists and 2 Kensai. Nowhere to go but up!

Though the gold cost isn't something that can be ignored; or the honor requirement. However in a Attachment/Follower build that can consistently hit 8 FH she may be worth the investment.

Edit: On a side note Kamoko is a great target for Standing Fast.
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Moto Seals
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:53 am

Cost and Honor requirement make her unplayable. Should have had 6 HR at most.

Earliest you could buy her is turn 5, or the turn most Honor decks are crossing.
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Shinjo Dae-Hyun
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:17 am

Moto Seals wrote:Cost and Honor requirement make her unplayable. Should have had 6 HR at most.

Earliest you could buy her is turn 5, or the turn most Honor decks are crossing.
You think so? Whenever Naleesh flips on turn 4 I typically meet the honor requirement to bring her out and she swings most/if not every game for me. But at 16 gold Kamoko is still an attachment more in price than either Naleesh or Taigo. I think she'll need to be tested but I see her being viable against Military and Dishonor at the very least. The offensive harpoon/kill is to good against home bodies like Kozan or Shizuka.

Against Lion, Crane, or Phoenix honor I'm typically pushing for game on turn 6-7. (depending on the roll out but Phoenix is the only clan out of the three I've ever seen cross on turn 5) Is the average crossing turn for most honor decks 6-7? That seems about right from my experience.
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Moto Seals
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:07 am

Shinjo Dae-Hyun wrote:[You think so? Whenever Naleesh flips on turn 4 I typically meet the honor requirement to bring her out and she swings most/if not every game for me. But at 16 gold Kamoko is still an attachment more in price than either Naleesh or Taigo. I think she'll need to be tested but I see her being viable against Military and Dishonor at the very least. The offensive harpoon/kill is to good against home bodies like Kozan or Shizuka.

Against Lion, Crane, or Phoenix honor I'm typically pushing for game on turn 6-7. (depending on the roll out but Phoenix is the only clan out of the three I've ever seen cross on turn 5) Is the average crossing turn for most honor decks 6-7? That seems about right from my experience.
Naleesh is also 6 less gold, so it's not an impossible idea of buying somebody else on turn 4 to get to 8 honor. Odds of buying somebody else on turn 4 AND Kamoko are alot slimmer unless your gold cranked it. The fact that Kamoko doesn't even solo provinces like Taigo or Naleesh (through tactician) is slightly depressing as well considering her INSANE gold cost.

I would start worrying about honor decks crossing more reliably on turn 5. ;)
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MotoKCi
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:01 pm

Totally agree with Seals, no redeeming factor as a competitive card due to the stupid combination of HR and 16G, put her into any build, your deck becomes worse, sad but true.

You should be playing Taigo and Naleesh over her, then look out of clans and play every other unique (if you want to create super-friends) before you will play her.

She is like the 50th pick....

If she made it into any of my decks, it will solely be for sentimental reasons.

It is so cruel, one of my favourite personality, and they made it into a coaster. If you cannot buy the personality at turn 3 latest, it is a piece of sh*t. The game state is established fully in 5 turns, when Kamoko comes in, the game had already been decided, what is the point of even putting her in decks?

I rate her 2/10, +1 for being Kamoko, and +1 for art. +9 for her high force, follower and battle action, -9 for the gold cost and HR. I hope i am slightly mistaken (and she becomes a 3 or 4, but i seriously doubt it).
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Iuchi Toshimo
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:52 pm

....Yeah
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Moto Shintomo
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Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:40 pm

She has one of the strongest kill abilities in the game, totally hoses the new Kachiko. She is very expensive unfortunately. I do think the 16 gold is too much, that is like buying 2 personalities. The 8 honor req isn't that bad though, its doable.

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Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:46 am

I like her, but I agree with KC, she would only make it into my decks because she is such a favorite character. When you compare her to the original Seven Thunder version of herself only requiring 5 family honor and 11 gold cost of which you could discount that to 9 if you did not desire to proclaim her. That definitely speaks ill about her being included into any deck builds except for just fun, friendly play.

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RavenSoul
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Thu Jul 09, 2015 4:35 am

Expensive as hell, so no way this goes into competitive, no matter how stong she is. By the time she hits the table, you either already lost or won anyway. Also, after seeing the new event of the thunders, i kinda have to laugh a bit. This would be the slowest deck ever. Even slower then Love letter. I kinda wanna build it just to bang my head on the walls a few times.
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Iuchi Toshimo
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Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:36 am

16 GC is not the issue. Our gold, especially corrupt gold, is quite good and can easily exceed 16 by T3.

The issue is her 8HR. Much like Naleesh, in pure military, you can meet that HR and GC combined around T4 at the earliest.
If we are going second, we've burned through about 50% of our dynasty by then, and we don't want to see Kamoko before this point.
So, right away, Kamoko in a deck is simply a liability in about 50% of games.
That means a T5 attack, against hopefully two remaining opposing provinces, in which you hope to use Kamoko's ability to trashcan a defender.
Against other military, her T4 defense and T5 attack may allow a decent tempo swing, but against defensive decks, she has come too late.

And that would be a risky investment but an acceptable one if she could solo provinces, but at 6F+1F, she cannot do that against most clans.
She cannot split the defenders on her own, and so unlike Naleesh, cannot be used to manipulate an opponent's defense.

If it were just the 16GC, we could buy her T3, and it may be a different story because her ability could create an enormous tempo swing even if she did not take a province by herself.

IMO, that 8HR is the kiss of death for Unicorn uniques. I wish they'd stop that. 7HR would be restrictive without being punitive and bring us in line with basically every other clan.
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MotoKCi
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Sun Jul 12, 2015 2:59 pm

Iuchi Toshimo wrote: IMO, that 8HR is the kiss of death for Unicorn uniques. I wish they'd stop that. 7HR would be restrictive without being punitive and bring us in line with basically every other clan.
Utaku Izimi is one such example, she's 6 GC for 4F Cav and a battle action, and still barely anybody plays her.

I'd also like to point out Izimi is actually a battle maiden while Kamoko is not :lol:

Now, my question is, are you willing to spend 10, yes TEN gold more, for 2 more force (and still not solo province) and a better battle action (not by a lot)? How is she not horrendously over-priced?!
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Iuchi Toshimo
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Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:06 pm

My inner mathematician wants to over-analyze, so I'll just say that:

Yes, I think that battle action is way better and I think the GC is justified.
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Shinjo Kinou
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Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:17 pm

I agree that the battle action is better, and the GC is justified... but the HR is not. Kamoko won't be competitively playable until we get a Battle Maiden sensei that gives +1FH. Mixed with a largely 3ph personality base, she will only be 1 proclaim from buyable.

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Horiuchi Meimei
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Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:03 pm

A friend put together a Maiden deck with Carpenter Shrines and Otomo Terumoto (?) and Otomo Demiyah to help with the 8HRs. That part has worked out well for him so Kamoko may be playable with a setup like that. I'm willing to try that myself but I still feel that she's too expensive for what she brings to the table compared to current personalities. Maybe Onyx will lower personality efficiency again?
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Nomad Chronicler
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Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:42 pm

Personally I feel the issue is speed here. She's very strong, but either the HR or the GC is going to determine when, if at all she is playable. With how fast Honor is right now... I dunno.
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Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:00 pm

Horiuchi Meimei wrote:Maybe Onyx will lower personality efficiency again?
I certainly hope not. We already had a massive power drop. Besides, all of the efficiency these days is in attachments and the fate hand.

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Shinjo Silme
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Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:37 am

I totally agree that she is near impossible to play in competitive decks but her artwork will make me try, once more :D
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Moto Subodei
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Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:28 am

Fits into a battle-maiden deck, which with the new personalities in THA & Ichigo sensei has actually become quite a nice military/honor runner switch deck.Mine has been pretty successful.

In any low-mid hr military deck though, it's going to be tough to run her, at least naleesh is only 10g.

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