Thoughts on the new Unicorn Stronghold?

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Shinjo Dae-Hyun
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 7:28 am

First Side:

7 PS
5 G
4 H

This Stronghold produces 4 gold during your first turn

Battle/Engage: If he would be opposed, move to the current battlefield your target unbowed personality in a Cavalry unit at any location

Second Side

8 PS
5 G
4 H

This Stronghold produces 4 gold during your first turn. You may use the cycle player ability one additional time during any turn of the game.

Battle/Engage: If he would be opposed, move to the current battlefield your target unbowed personality in a Cavalry unit at any location

I think I'll still be running 3x Cloth Market. And the Cycle any turn will be powerful!

Thoughts?
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Shinjo Eisai
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:57 am

Just posted in the thread in previews, but I really don't see why they did this, while leaving Mantis getting free gold, and Tsujiken Sensei in the environment. Our Ivory 2 people all still seem to be costed for a 5-gold economy, meaning we still want to buy 5 gold worth of production on turn 1, which with this change is far less likely. It seems to me that barring lots of changes to holding/our personality design in New Order/Ivory 2, we won't really be able to build a truly efficient gold scheme. With only 4 production on turn 1, and ignoring Coastal Lane for the moment (believe me, I'm now interested in a playset of that), it means that for T1 we want a 4for4 or 2 2for2s (or ideally a 2for2 and a Stable). But if we want the 4-cost scheme for turn 1, and then suddenly we produce 5 for the rest of the game, now our SH is made less efficient for buying holdings for the rest of the game, on top of, since our personalities still seem to be costed for 5 GP on the box, our holdings are less efficient for buying people.

Barring changes to holding design or our personalities' costing (and obviously this is without seeing any cards from New Order or Ivory 2), I'm somewhat afraid they may have broken things.
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Shinjo Dae-Hyun
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:02 am

We'll just have to wait and see how our card base looks in the future.

The other strongholds seem balanced so this shouldn't be TOO much of a detriment to us. Again, I could be wrong?

Just trying to stay optimistic!
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Moto Eiji
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:26 pm

I'm actually more interested in the ability to Cycle at any point in the game if going second. Seems really good even if you only see it in half of the games played.
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MotoKCi
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Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:55 pm

Obviously, it's terrible compared to the status quo, you get penalties but no benefits out of it (the B side is slightly improved, but i'd prefer +1G in first turn any day).

The hardest thing for us is to make a gold scheme that can work for the 1st turn AND also all the other turns, and it will create a lot of issues for us over time unless you have holdings with invest 1 or something.

But the KEY thing is what they are going to do about the starting second problem, if they fixed that properly, this change may not be so bad, because we typically don't lose going first, so a -1GP in first turn MAY be justified, but our current matchup going 2nd is not particularly good, so giving an additional -1GP on top of marginal matchups is clearly a bad idea.
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Horiuchi Meimei
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Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:22 am

It pains me to say this but I think producing 4G on the first turn is a good balancing factor. Having 5G available all the time with gold pooling around is a ridiculously good advantage, especialy when we go first against half the Clans out there. Cavalry has to cost extra because of the benefit it provides and the problem in Ivory has been that our economy was easily able to cover that extra cost. Gold production has been the name of the game throughout Ivory and often whoever could produce the most after the second or third turn was the winner. Mantis' extra gold is their compensation for going second so I'm not surprised that was untouched. Yasuki's 5G could prove problematic to the environment if Crab gets some good military non-samurai but it's not like those decks have been tearing up the tournament scene lately.
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Shinjo Silme
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Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:05 pm

Like minikui for example ? :D

I agree with meimei something needed to be done and this move reduce a lot of chance to abuse a dominant economy as results proved in 2014... This kill T3 free blitz (with 9 gold in T2 you need to make a more difficult choice with lot of peeps costing 8 gold except okiau), this kill the option ogre bushi + holding and still make it difficult to make a full turn 2 of gold (need to see a cloth market and 2 2/2 to be optimal, i already love you forgotten legacy :D).

Yet, i don't know if this unstability in our new gold schemes was the best thing to do and if there was other way to work on this but at least something was done and this seems to work solve the problem... But sure, our new gold schemes will be tricky to build.

Mantis proved to be rich in ivory 1 but found no deck able to really abuse big guys or fallen and was not able to build dominant blitz decks (the T2 blitz deck was not relevant it seems even if it was a great idea). Somewhat, the whole mantis mechanic seems more balanced than unicorn...

Crab tsujiken in big guy mode is another big problem not answered at the present time...As always few environnements are playing the most competitive decks but this doesn't mean crab tsujiken is not a danger to the environnement as a whole.
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Moto Shintomo
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:24 am

I wonder if Tsujiken Sensei is going to get errata'd to only being able to produce 4 gold on turn one too.

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Ryofu
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Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:21 am

If this nerf gives us personalities that actually make me want to play them instead of the crap we got for TCS and Alits (barring Moto angry dog) I will be fine with the nerf

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Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:10 am

I wonder how many more concession we will be called to make so , in order the AEG to silence the whiners.

I dont think we will get any skilled personalities in exchange, we didnt get for cavalry maneuver after all.
Nor cost corrections.
They intent, bluntly, to slow our decks down.
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Shinjo Eisai
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Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:50 pm

It's really looking at the costs of our people in addition to having to change the gold scheme and be potentially inefficient T2+. I just played a game tonight where my 1st turn flip gave me 10 to start T2, and I was 1 gold short of what I REALLY wanted. That 1 gold haunted me the entire game. It was close, but ultimately I think the 1 gold probably made the difference. And that was with not having a deck already changed to a more inefficient gold structure using the same people.
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Moto Ess-Ry
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Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:26 am

If the cost of our guys accounts for a 4g base production stronghold, itll remain one of the best boxes in ivory.

If not, then the pendulum swings back to Unicorn getting very little support and having to play really strange things (and really, thats clearly already happening). We needed to be on a 4g box, balanced around a 4g box if they ever wanted gold pooling and relevant 3-3's though. I hear getting to run the Lion gold scheme but twice as good is a really good thing.

The 2nd cycle being any time is pretty great, and probably could have helped out worst match this year a bit.

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Moto Damasko
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Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:31 am

While I agree with everyone's statements about the gold on the box, both positive and negative, my firm belief is that this is nothing new. The gold has been the way it has been since before I started playing and based on quick analysis (even with the advantage of gold pooling and a perfect start) you are looking at 2 gold difference on turn 3 with current cards and ruleset vs the old ruleset. Additionally the cost of personalities has only shifted downward because of an influx of infantry personalities, costs remain relatively constant for force and abilities across the board.

That said, the benefit and its sad for me to say, is finally I can tell everyone who complains about the extra gold to stow it. Further if the hammer swings to hard and we see that unicorn need to be rebalanced with this change, then it proves the point that unicorn were balanced to begin with at 5 gold, so either way is a win IMO.

The gold scheme will shift and we'll try to make due. Just my thoughts, I'll look forward to playing with the new box for the back-side but nothing much changes in my book, you play with what you are given.
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MotoKCi
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Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:27 pm

I had played many games already with the (proxy) new stronghold.

And can report that I feel that the deck(s) are still Tier 1 even with the gold cut (going first). The penalty of -1GP is obviously a significant one, but because the advantage of going first is still so great, it offsets any real or perceived penalty of the -1GP in first turn. So instead of winning 90% of the time going first, I find I am winning 70-80% instead against other strong builds.

However, if AEG finally decides to address the really obvious going first advantage, I will likely change my view on balancing of this SH. I just do not understand why they left going first as it is. They should have brought back Bamboo Harvester, something, anything on top of B side and 'courtesy' (both of these are too little to matter).
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